| Author |
Message |
Scott Hemphill
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in
news:QgSbf.14324$Zv5.5612@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
It's been years since I used Kermit,
GEE, I WAS PRETTY SURE KERMIT WAS A FROG. IE KERMIT DA FROG ON DA
MUPPETS
From Wikipedia:
Kermit was named for the Kermit the Frog from the Muppets.
|
Perhaps it was, but I'd like to see an authoritative source. I know when
it was implemented on the Macintosh, there was a Kermit the Frog icon, but
I remember seeing an acronym in 1981 or 1982. I googled for it and found
some later source code which matches my memory:
"KERMIT STANDS FOR (K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE (R)ECIPROCAL (M)ICROPROCESSOR
(I)NTERCHANGE OVER (T)TY LINES"
The KL10 (also called KL20) was the processor in the DECsystem-20, and
the original source was written in the assembly language MACRO-20. It
was written by Bill Catchings and Frank da Cruz at Columbia University
in April 1981.
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/cdrom/rsx11/rsx84a/356040/170kermi.for
http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/pdp10.html
Scott
--
Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu
"This isn't flying. This is falling, with style." -- Buzz Lightyear |
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Reuti
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:43 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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In article <43707d10.149944679@read.news.uk.uu.net>, Aandi Inston
<quite@dial.pipex.con> wrote:
| Quote: | Julian Vrieslander <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote:
In article <Tpxaf.23810$6e1.23030@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:
READ THE MANUAL
Wotta genius. I had already downloaded and searched the user guide,
thank you very much. It lists PostScript as a supported language, but
does not state whether the interpreter code is licensed from Adobe, or
is based on emulation.
You were pretty quick to dismiss this excellent advice. The manual is
pretty definitive. It never once says Adobe PostScript (this is a
trademark that, when used in this way, indicates Adobe-supplied
PostScript; while PostScript alone is a trademark which implies no
particular origin). There is no Adobe PostScript logo.
|
What about the logo on this page:
http://www.adobe.com/products/postscript/main.html
Some printers from e.g. Oki had this on their casing - but newer ones
not. I concluded that they changed because of this.
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Julian Vrieslander
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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|
In article <43707d10.149944679@read.news.uk.uu.net>,
quite@dial.pipex.con (Aandi Inston) wrote:
| Quote: | Julian Vrieslander <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote:
In article <Tpxaf.23810$6e1.23030@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:
READ THE MANUAL
Wotta genius. I had already downloaded and searched the user guide,
thank you very much. It lists PostScript as a supported language, but
does not state whether the interpreter code is licensed from Adobe, or
is based on emulation.
You were pretty quick to dismiss this excellent advice. The manual is
pretty definitive. It never once says Adobe PostScript (this is a
trademark that, when used in this way, indicates Adobe-supplied
PostScript; while PostScript alone is a trademark which implies no
particular origin). There is no Adobe PostScript logo.
Adobe PostScript costs the printer manufacturer substantially more,
and is a selling point. It would say so, both in the manual, and in
all the publicity material. Contrast with the 5500 material
http://www.direct.xerox.com/direct/public/products/xerox_product_details.cfm/p
roduct/xerox_5500__B_printer.html
|
The manual for the Phaser 3500 mentions "PostScript" many times, but the
phrase "Adobe PostScript" does not appear anywhere. It contains the
text "Adobe (r)", but only in the usual boilerplate listing of
trademarks for all third-party products that may be associated with the
text. I printed some internal test pages, and these do not contain any
mention of Adobe. The PPD file contains a disclaimer that (if anything)
seems to deny any connection to Adobe.
*PPD-Adobe: "4.3"
*% =========================================
*% Disclaimer: The above statement indicates
*% that this PPD was written using the Adobe PPD
*% File Format Specification 4.3, but does not
*% intend to imply approval and acceptance by
*% Adobe Systems, Inc.
*% =========================================
*% CopyRight (c) 2004 by
*% Xerox Corporation (R)
*% All Rights Reserved
I suspect, as you probably do, that this printer does not contain a true
Adobe PostScript interpreter. There are other clues. In addition to
the document you mentioned above, the Xerox printer line brochure
<http://www.office.xerox.com/latest/OPBBR-01.PDF>
shows the 3500 as having "Postscript 3", while the 4500 and 5500 have
"Adobe Postscript 3". Yet the website also has a spec page for the 3500
<http://www.office.xerox.com/perl-bin/product.pl?product=3500&page=spec>
that shows "Language support" for "Adobe (r) PostScript(r) Level 3
(tm)". This is interesting, since the trademarked name is just "Adobe
PostScript 3". Adobe dropped "Level" from the name, after "Adobe
PostScript Level 2".
As mentioned in my original post, I tried to get a definitive answer
from Xerox. Two of their reps told me, after checking with their expert
sources within the company, that the 3500 has true Adobe PS 3. But I'm
inclined to believe that these people are poorly either poorly informed,
or that the company is purposefully trying to mislead. The 3500 looks
like a decent product. But, based on this negative experience, I am
more likely to choose a different brand.
--
Julian Vrieslander |
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Julian Vrieslander
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:34 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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In article <1131237908.506795.150260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Chapman Flack" <googrou@anastigmatix.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Julian Vrieslander wrote:
How do I type a command to the printer's PS interpreter? Do I need to
telnet to its IP address? Do I need to ftp a file? Or is there another
Telnet should work. You want to connect to the printer's AppSocket
port, probably 9100:
$ telnet printer.ip.ad.dress 9100
|
I tried this on an HP printer and it worked.
$ telnet xxx.xx.xx.xx 9100
Trying xxx.xx.xx.xx...
Connected to xxx.xx.xx.xx.
Escape character is '^]'.
executive
This brought up a banner with identification, copyright, and PS version
number. But when I tried it on the Xerox Phaser 3500, it did not work.
The printer responded to pings, and accepted a telnet connection. It
got to the line
Escape character is '^]'.
But there was no response to "executive". No text response on the
terminal. Instead, the 3500 printed out a page with the word
"executive" on it.
--
Julian Vrieslander |
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Carl Lowenstein
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:53 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
In article <Xns9708C87241306RrrrFfffTttt4396hotm@216.168.3.72>,
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9708C2B12765FRrrrFfffTttt4396hotm@216.168.3.72:
Scott Hemphill <hemphill@hemphills.net> wrote in
news:m3slu72i8o.fsf@jade.local:
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
From Wikipedia:
Kermit was named for the Kermit the Frog from the Muppets.
Perhaps it was, but I'd like to see an authoritative source. I know
when it was implemented on the Macintosh, there was a Kermit the Frog
icon, but I remember seeing an acronym in 1981 or 1982. I googled
for it and found some later source code which matches my memory:
"KERMIT STANDS FOR (K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE (R)ECIPROCAL (M)ICROPROCESSOR
(I)NTERCHANGE OVER (T)TY LINES"
Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at
Wikipedia, suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the
Frog/Muppet statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can
provide such evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be
appropriate.
Although Columbia's historical web pages say nothing about the origin of
the name "Kermit" for the protocol, their current web page for Kermit
says:
The Kermit protocol and software are named after Kermit the Frog, star
of the television series, The Muppet Show; the name Kermit is used by
permission of Henson Associates, Inc.
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html
|
Kermit as "(K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE . . . " seems to be a good example of a
retronym, that is, an acronym that was built after the fact. First name
it KERMIT, then think up some words that fit the initials.
An outstanding example of a retronym is PING, Packet InterNet Groper.
Totally bogus.
Shouldn't this discussion be going on in alt.folklore.computers?
carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenst@ucsd.edu |
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Jim Land
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:08 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
Scott Hemphill <hemphill@hemphills.net> wrote in
news:m3slu72i8o.fsf@jade.local:
| Quote: | Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in
news:QgSbf.14324$Zv5.5612@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
It's been years since I used Kermit,
GEE, I WAS PRETTY SURE KERMIT WAS A FROG. IE KERMIT DA FROG ON DA
MUPPETS
From Wikipedia:
Kermit was named for the Kermit the Frog from the Muppets.
Perhaps it was, but I'd like to see an authoritative source. I know
when it was implemented on the Macintosh, there was a Kermit the Frog
icon, but I remember seeing an acronym in 1981 or 1982. I googled for
it and found some later source code which matches my memory:
"KERMIT STANDS FOR (K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE (R)ECIPROCAL (M)ICROPROCESSOR
(I)NTERCHANGE OVER (T)TY LINES"
|
Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at Wikipedia,
suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the Frog/Muppet
statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can provide such
evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be appropriate. |
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Reuti
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:16 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
In article
<julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-AA2BCA.15234708112005@gnus01.u.washington.edu>,
Julian Vrieslander <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <43707d10.149944679@read.news.uk.uu.net>,
quite@dial.pipex.con (Aandi Inston) wrote:
Julian Vrieslander <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote:
In article <Tpxaf.23810$6e1.23030@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,
measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:
READ THE MANUAL
Wotta genius. I had already downloaded and searched the user guide,
thank you very much. It lists PostScript as a supported language, but
does not state whether the interpreter code is licensed from Adobe, or
is based on emulation.
You were pretty quick to dismiss this excellent advice. The manual is
pretty definitive. It never once says Adobe PostScript (this is a
trademark that, when used in this way, indicates Adobe-supplied
PostScript; while PostScript alone is a trademark which implies no
particular origin). There is no Adobe PostScript logo.
Adobe PostScript costs the printer manufacturer substantially more,
and is a selling point. It would say so, both in the manual, and in
all the publicity material. Contrast with the 5500 material
http://www.direct.xerox.com/direct/public/products/xerox_product_details.cfm
/p
roduct/xerox_5500__B_printer.html
The manual for the Phaser 3500 mentions "PostScript" many times, but the
phrase "Adobe PostScript" does not appear anywhere. It contains the
text "Adobe (r)", but only in the usual boilerplate listing of
trademarks for all third-party products that may be associated with the
text. I printed some internal test pages, and these do not contain any
mention of Adobe. The PPD file contains a disclaimer that (if anything)
seems to deny any connection to Adobe.
*PPD-Adobe: "4.3"
*% =========================================
*% Disclaimer: The above statement indicates
*% that this PPD was written using the Adobe PPD
*% File Format Specification 4.3, but does not
*% intend to imply approval and acceptance by
*% Adobe Systems, Inc.
*% =========================================
*% CopyRight (c) 2004 by
*% Xerox Corporation (R)
*% All Rights Reserved
I suspect, as you probably do, that this printer does not contain a true
Adobe PostScript interpreter. There are other clues. In addition to
the document you mentioned above, the Xerox printer line brochure
http://www.office.xerox.com/latest/OPBBR-01.PDF
shows the 3500 as having "Postscript 3", while the 4500 and 5500 have
"Adobe Postscript 3". Yet the website also has a spec page for the 3500
http://www.office.xerox.com/perl-bin/product.pl?product=3500&page=spec
that shows "Language support" for "Adobe (r) PostScript(r) Level 3
(tm)". This is interesting, since the trademarked name is just "Adobe
PostScript 3". Adobe dropped "Level" from the name, after "Adobe
PostScript Level 2".
|
In the local german version I get only "PostScript Level 3" no word of
Adobe. But on the english one I see your version instead. In fact,
according to pages 9/10 of the PostScript 3 Reference Manual exactly
this is a fine difference, and might be a vioaltion of Adobe's
trademarks.
| Quote: |
As mentioned in my original post, I tried to get a definitive answer
from Xerox. Two of their reps told me, after checking with their expert
sources within the company, that the 3500 has true Adobe PS 3. But I'm
inclined to believe that these people are poorly either poorly informed,
or that the company is purposefully trying to mislead. The 3500 looks
like a decent product. But, based on this negative experience, I am
more likely to choose a different brand. |
|
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zakezuke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:33 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
| Quote: | Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at Wikipedia,
suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the Frog/Muppet
statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can provide such
evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be appropriate.
|
Was Kermit designed for communication over tty lines? I know that is
one application for kermit but kermit according to the columbia.edu
website it was designed after telnet... so a logical application would
also be over tcp/ip not just tty. What I don't know is when kermit
supported resume.. a handy feature that ftp didn't always have, which
would sugest applications for both tcp/ip and tty.
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html |
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Jim Land
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:42 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9708C2B12765FRrrrFfffTttt4396hotm@216.168.3.72:
| Quote: | Scott Hemphill <hemphill@hemphills.net> wrote in
news:m3slu72i8o.fsf@jade.local:
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
From Wikipedia:
Kermit was named for the Kermit the Frog from the Muppets.
Perhaps it was, but I'd like to see an authoritative source. I know
when it was implemented on the Macintosh, there was a Kermit the Frog
icon, but I remember seeing an acronym in 1981 or 1982. I googled
for it and found some later source code which matches my memory:
"KERMIT STANDS FOR (K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE (R)ECIPROCAL (M)ICROPROCESSOR
(I)NTERCHANGE OVER (T)TY LINES"
Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at
Wikipedia, suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the
Frog/Muppet statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can
provide such evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be
appropriate.
|
Although Columbia's historical web pages say nothing about the origin of
the name "Kermit" for the protocol, their current web page for Kermit
says:
The Kermit protocol and software are named after Kermit the Frog, star
of the television series, The Muppet Show; the name Kermit is used by
permission of Henson Associates, Inc.
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html |
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Scott Hemphill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:49 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns9708C2B12765FRrrrFfffTttt4396hotm@216.168.3.72:
Scott Hemphill <hemphill@hemphills.net> wrote in
news:m3slu72i8o.fsf@jade.local:
Jim Land <RrrrFfffTttt(NO)@(SPAM)hotmail.com> writes:
From Wikipedia:
Kermit was named for the Kermit the Frog from the Muppets.
Perhaps it was, but I'd like to see an authoritative source. I know
when it was implemented on the Macintosh, there was a Kermit the Frog
icon, but I remember seeing an acronym in 1981 or 1982. I googled
for it and found some later source code which matches my memory:
"KERMIT STANDS FOR (K)L10 (E)RROR-FREE (R)ECIPROCAL (M)ICROPROCESSOR
(I)NTERCHANGE OVER (T)TY LINES"
Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at
Wikipedia, suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the
Frog/Muppet statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can
provide such evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be
appropriate.
Although Columbia's historical web pages say nothing about the origin of
the name "Kermit" for the protocol, their current web page for Kermit
says:
The Kermit protocol and software are named after Kermit the Frog, star
of the television series, The Muppet Show; the name Kermit is used by
permission of Henson Associates, Inc.
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html
|
OK, I guess if Columbia says so. The acronym seemed rather contrived.
Scott
--
Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu
"This isn't flying. This is falling, with style." -- Buzz Lightyear |
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Scott Hemphill
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:56 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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|
"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> writes:
| Quote: | Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at Wikipedia,
suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the Frog/Muppet
statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can provide such
evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be appropriate.
Was Kermit designed for communication over tty lines? I know that is
one application for kermit but kermit according to the columbia.edu
website it was designed after telnet... so a logical application would
also be over tcp/ip not just tty. What I don't know is when kermit
supported resume.. a handy feature that ftp didn't always have, which
would sugest applications for both tcp/ip and tty.
|
I used a version that didn't have support for anything else. It was typically
used for connecting a DECsystem-20 to 8080-based systems running CP/M. These
early micros had RS-232 serial ports, but ethernet didn't exist for them yet
(as far as I know).
Scott
--
Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu
"This isn't flying. This is falling, with style." -- Buzz Lightyear |
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Julian Vrieslander
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:25 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
In article <1131511549.322887.231280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Chapman Flack" <googrou@anastigmatix.net> wrote:
| Quote: | My Phaser 750, which is unquestionably Adobe PS 3 (executive says so,
and the ROM chips are labeled (C) Adobe Sys) also has no Adobe logo
anywhere on the case, and no mention of Adobe in the user manual
(except in the trademark boilerplate, just as you describe). You
can't go by these signs; ask the interpreter!
|
As I reported in another message, I tried a telnet connection to the PS
interpreter. But I had only brief access to a Phaser 3500 installed in
another department. I could not get any response from the interpreter.
| Quote: | If Xerox tells you it's Adobe, they might not be lying; they're a
fairly prominent organization to run that kind of a risk.
|
I would not put it past them to spread a little ambiguity. The
promotional materials for the 3500 are also ambiguous about its
resolution spec. They use the phrase "1200 dpi quality", which is
probably marketer's weaselspeak for some sort of resolution enhancement
or interpolation scheme. The 3500 is almost certainly a 600 dpi device.
When I compare its output against a true 1200 dpi device, there is an
obvious difference in the greyscale dotscreens.
Their promotional materials for the more expensive printers give much
clearer indications that they contain true PS.
--
Julian Vrieslander |
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zakezuke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:25 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
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|
| Quote: | I used a version that didn't have support for anything else. It was typically
used for connecting a DECsystem-20 to 8080-based systems running CP/M. These
early micros had RS-232 serial ports, but ethernet didn't exist for them yet
(as far as I know).
|
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/whatsnew.html
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/dec20.html#kermit
Ok... your info hold some weight... looks like "1981: Kermit
protocol designed at Columbia University and first implementations
written (CP/M, DEC-20)." with the intended application transfering
files from the dec-20 to floppy disks on a micro computer is the
earliest entry. I can totally see replacing terminals with micros for
this application, and as they were already wired for serial no mucking
around with new cables and as a 90k floppy was the upgrade I can also
see that 9600bps more than adquate. |
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Chapman Flack
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:25 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
Julian Vrieslander wrote:
| Quote: | I tried this on an HP printer and it worked.
$ telnet xxx.xx.xx.xx 9100
Trying xxx.xx.xx.xx...
Connected to xxx.xx.xx.xx.
Escape character is '^]'.
executive
This brought up a banner with identification, copyright, and PS version
number. But when I tried it on the Xerox Phaser 3500, it did not work.
...
terminal. Instead, the 3500 printed out a page with the word
"executive" on it.
|
Looks as though the 3500 is configured for printer-language autoselect
on the AppSocket port. That is, it probably looks at the first two
incoming characters and if they are %! it fires up the PS interpreter,
otherwise it assumes PCL and your characters just get printed (except
for PCL escape sequences).
You could try a couple of things. One would be to telnet to port 9100
again, type %! as the first two characters, a newline, *then*
executive.
It might not work though if the telnet client sends any bytes as part
of
telnet protocol so the %! are not really first (Kermit would work in
that
case). The easier way is probably to go to the printer front panel
network config menu and set the AppSocket page language to PS only.
-Chap |
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Chapman Flack
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:25 am Post subject:
Re: How can I test whether a printer has true PostScript? |
|
|
Jim Land (NO SPAM) wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks for the information. I've opened a discussion over at Wikipedia,
suggesting that the evidence above doesn't support the Frog/Muppet
statement. It will be interesting to see if anyone can provide such
evidence. If not, a revision of the article will be appropriate.
|
The full story is in footnote 3 on page 3 of the Kermit book; I quoted
it in
full in the wikipedia discussion. Briefly, they made up acronyms to
explain
the word until they had secured permission from Henson Associates to
'fess
up that it was named after the frog. :) |
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