| Author |
Message |
[0v0]
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:44 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
In article <j2saf.609$c66.451@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
b.hobbs@ntlworld.com says...
| Quote: | Because they are the ones that deleted it with no apparent reason and
without my consent.
|
And if your hard drive had failed, you'd blame the manufacturer....?
You, and you alone are responsible for your data, IMHO.
YMMV.
| Quote: | I do not create backups daily, its more like every 2
weeks. Can you say you backup you data every time you make changes?
|
I have automated backup that runs every 'n' hours depending on how
critical the data is. My "My Documents" folder is backed up every 2
hours, to an internal IDE on my desktop, and an external USB drive too.
I then make a full back up to DVD at the end of each week.
So, yes, I can say I probably do back-up every time I make changes,
albeit at 2 hour intervals. I'd rather lose 2 hours worth of work than 2
weeks. |
|
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|
 |
[0v0]
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
In article <a4saf.283$ZA.3@read3.inet.fi>, notwobe@yahoo.com says...
[...]
| Quote: | The only case someone could be responsible for data stored would
a company selling this type of service and explicitly accepting such
responsability ... a rare company!
|
And even then, 'force majeure' would undoubtedly be written into the
contract. |
|
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|
|
Fixer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:24 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
"Barry Hobbf" <b.hobbs@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:639af.331$Cq4.222@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
| Quote: | Hello,
A month ago my laptop died and was sent away under warranty. After a month
it was still not returned. For the alst 2 weeks ive been on the phone for
hours trying to work out what exactly was happening - to be told about 30
different stories. So far I can work out the laptop is still not fixed,
and
they have erased the data on the HDD. (apparently it was just a power
supply
fault)
In the mean time I have got a new laptop because after 28 days PC world
are
obliged to give a replacement - and even doing this they tried to fob me
of
with a lower spec.
However, the data on the drive was very important to me and included tax
data for my business and other business related items - as well as many
sentimental items.
Can i claim against them to receive compensation for my losses, and the
cost
of calls and time/productivity I have lost?
NO you cant claim for loss of data as with all compoanies in the T&Cs you
and you alone are responsible for your data and the relevent back ups no
matter how old the HDD even if its one day old and fails YOU the user are
responsible |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tarzan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:46 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
"William P.N. Smith" <news05@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:3r7km15pruk7rebe192le9vns7ds0o3lou@4ax.com...
| Quote: | "Uncle Scrooge" <US@scrooge.com> wrote:
If a disk has been erased, even once, can the data on it
be recovered by commercial means, regardless of costs?
Well, there's "erased" and then there's "erased". Erasure methods can
range from:
Erase all files - Undelete programs can recover
Quick Format - a bit more work, but easy to recover
Normal Format - check with a data recovery company
Low-Level format with MFR diags - ask the NSA
Linux-based overwriter - NSA again, the more passes, the more secure
Can law-enforcement agencies actually read erased
disks?
Yes, and their forensic techiques can supposedly pull stuff off even
multi-pass overwritten drives, though it's really expensive and
time-consuming to do so, so they'd have to have a good reason to
bother.
Note that a 'bad' sector, when it gets remapped in the drive, will
still be there, and probably easily readable by the NSA, even after
dozens of 'overwrite' passes (as it's not getting overwritten). Hence
the requirement for Really Secure Data to be physically destroyed.
I did a couple of passes of a Linux overwriter recently before I sent
a Dell machine back, and I'm not worried.
|
Are the standard wipe programs out there, say, with DOD
standards, good enough for permanently making the data
unrecoverable, even by the most sophisticated means, or
can the NSA read anything anyway?
What Linux overwriter did you use? |
|
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|
|
William P.N. Smith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:26 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
"Tarzan" <tarzan@wild.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "William P.N. Smith" <news05@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
Well, there's "erased" and then there's "erased".
Are the standard wipe programs out there, say, with DOD
standards, good enough for permanently making the data
unrecoverable, even by the most sophisticated means, or
can the NSA read anything anyway?
|
Well, yes, and no, and maybe. Remapped sectors are still going to be
there, and the NSA isn't really saying how many overwrites it takes
before they can't read the data any more. [In addition, it's a
statistical process, the more passes you run the less likely any given
agency is going to be able to recover the data.] Since there's no way
to use this statistical process to absolutely ensure that no data can
ever be recovered, even "mil-spec" or "DOD-standard" erasers are not
sufficient for the toppest of secrets, and physical destruction is
mandated for that media.
| Quote: | What Linux overwriter did you use?
|
I knew someone was going to ask that, but I can't seem to find it. It
was either something off the Ultimate Boot CD or something someone
mentioned recently in this newsgroup. [Since I can't find the floppy
or CD-ROM that I used, it was probably the UBCD...]
I just did a couple of random passes, as I figured that the next
person to see the drive would format it and install something useful
on it rather than pay a megabuck or so to recover some random old data
off it. If the NSA wants the contents of my hard drive, they've got
much easier ways of getting it than mapping the magnetic particles on
the disk surfaces of my used drives. |
|
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|
|
tarquinlinbin
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 20:10:42 GMT, "Barry Hobbf" <b.hobbs@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Hello,
A month ago my laptop died and was sent away under warranty. After a month
it was still not returned. For the alst 2 weeks ive been on the phone for
hours trying to work out what exactly was happening - to be told about 30
different stories. So far I can work out the laptop is still not fixed, and
they have erased the data on the HDD. (apparently it was just a power supply
fault)
It will almost certainly state in the t@c of your purchase/guarantee |
agreement that they do not accept liablity for data loss and that you
should back up important data. PC World may not be the best place to
deal with for computers IMHO.
Remove antispam and add 670 after bra to email
http://www.no2id.org/ |
|
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|
|
coorslte
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
[0v0] wrote:
| Quote: | In article <j2saf.609$c66.451@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
b.hobbs@ntlworld.com says...
Because they are the ones that deleted it with no apparent reason and
without my consent.
And if your hard drive had failed, you'd blame the manufacturer....?
You, and you alone are responsible for your data, IMHO.
YMMV.
I do not create backups daily, its more like every 2
weeks. Can you say you backup you data every time you make changes?
I have automated backup that runs every 'n' hours depending on how
critical the data is. My "My Documents" folder is backed up every 2
hours, to an internal IDE on my desktop, and an external USB drive too.
I then make a full back up to DVD at the end of each week.
So, yes, I can say I probably do back-up every time I make changes,
albeit at 2 hour intervals. I'd rather lose 2 hours worth of work than 2
weeks.
you're probably safe. ;-) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ikenfixit
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:31 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
We specialize in component level board repairs and we generally as
the consumer or customer to keep the hard drive as we do NOT want t
be responsible for data loss. Tons of good info here and alot o
excellent response to this lesson learned. Compaq or HP will take AN
machine and the first course of action? Wipe the drive.. (Dont ask m
why).. Many shops seem to follow suit in this matter and the fact is
An external drive enclosure and about an hour time, Running bot
Antivirus, Hdd recovery utilities, and burning disks can retriev
data from that in most cases seems to be a failed hard drive. Eve
if it comes to freezing the drive for 30 minutes.. Please ALWAY
back up your data if you didnt ask the shop or tech prior to send i
in for repair. Just food for thought. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:48 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
"Barry Hobbf" <b.hobbs@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:639af.331$Cq4.222@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
| Quote: | Hello,
A month ago my laptop died and was sent away under warranty. After a month
it was still not returned. For the alst 2 weeks ive been on the phone for
hours trying to work out what exactly was happening - to be told about 30
different stories. So far I can work out the laptop is still not fixed,
and
they have erased the data on the HDD. (apparently it was just a power
supply
fault)
In the mean time I have got a new laptop because after 28 days PC world
are
obliged to give a replacement - and even doing this they tried to fob me
of
with a lower spec.
However, the data on the drive was very important to me and included tax
data for my business and other business related items - as well as many
sentimental items.
Can i claim against them to receive compensation for my losses, and the
cost
of calls and time/productivity I have lost?
AlsoThe company want 80 quid for me to get my hard drive back - which has
been wiped. Can the data still be recovered if they have wiped it? (not
sure
how they erase the drives, wether its quick format or full overwrite)
many thanks, I'll appriciate any replies.
|
There are some negative comments in this thread. I hope I can address some
of them
I worked for Mastercare PC solutions on the helpdesk in Nottingham. By and
large the staff were good, some excellent and some poor. If you got a poor
member of staff then you were stuffed otherwise most customers were well
pleased with the result. We diagnosed problems as best we could at the end
of the phone line. We were able to book out any spares we thought the job
needed (if a hardware fault) without restriction. If we thought it could be
a mainboard / cpu / ram part then we booked out all three and the unused
parts when back into the inventory.
Whenever we talked a customer through a procedure or received equipment for
repair it was always on the understanding that the user would have taken a
full backup of all critical data and that we may have had to reinstall from
a recovery cd (which erases the contents of the hard drive). Unless you
agree to this we would have refused to attempt a repair. This should have
been spelt out to you.
That said I remember one poor helpdesk soul who forgot to inform the user
that they would lose all their data before talking them through recovering
the pc from a recovery cd. Apparently she lost several months worth of
financial data, invoices and creditor lists. The customer was very upset and
arrived the next day attempting to gain entry to the building to remonstrate
with the responsible rep.
Fortunatley she couldn't get into the building (swipe card entry) and in the
end she chained herself to the railings and called the local tv station
(meridian I think) which was suitably located directly opposite the help
call centre. We could see her on the carpark security cameras.
A last point is don't you have a backup? What would have happend had your
hard drive failed?
If your data has value then its worth backing up. Can I suggest you look at
one of the external USB solutions (the maxtor one touch solution comes to
mind) for future reference.
Andy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmzpub
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 2
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:42 am Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
Erased data can be recovered using data restoration tools. Among them
the most powerful IMHO are Active@ undelete and Uneraser (for DOS
usage) utilities. When I needed to restore erased data they were always
able to do it.
http://www.active-undelete.com/
http://www.uneraser.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
F
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
One point to make is that the terms and cons of warrenty all seem to include
the void if you remove the HD
With this in mind, i've got a laptop which is backed up every day at
midnight... at 23:30 it dies so I have a whole days work not backed up
worth £2-3k to me. No life in the machine ... HOW DO I BACKUP THE DATA ?
do I pull the drive and dump it to a PC - void warrenty
ask repair center to pull HD keep it safe ? - no pickup
I know which one I'd do - no warrenty + new laptop is still cheaper than
loss of data.
<x> wrote in message
news:4372444f$0$82642$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
| Quote: |
"Barry Hobbf" <b.hobbs@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:639af.331$Cq4.222@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
Hello,
A month ago my laptop died and was sent away under warranty. After a
month
it was still not returned. For the alst 2 weeks ive been on the phone
for
hours trying to work out what exactly was happening - to be told about
30
different stories. So far I can work out the laptop is still not fixed,
and
they have erased the data on the HDD. (apparently it was just a power
supply
fault)
In the mean time I have got a new laptop because after 28 days PC world
are
obliged to give a replacement - and even doing this they tried to fob me
of
with a lower spec.
However, the data on the drive was very important to me and included tax
data for my business and other business related items - as well as many
sentimental items.
Can i claim against them to receive compensation for my losses, and the
cost
of calls and time/productivity I have lost?
AlsoThe company want 80 quid for me to get my hard drive back - which
has
been wiped. Can the data still be recovered if they have wiped it? (not
sure
how they erase the drives, wether its quick format or full overwrite)
many thanks, I'll appriciate any replies.
There are some negative comments in this thread. I hope I can address some
of them
I worked for Mastercare PC solutions on the helpdesk in Nottingham. By and
large the staff were good, some excellent and some poor. If you got a poor
member of staff then you were stuffed otherwise most customers were well
pleased with the result. We diagnosed problems as best we could at the end
of the phone line. We were able to book out any spares we thought the job
needed (if a hardware fault) without restriction. If we thought it could
be
a mainboard / cpu / ram part then we booked out all three and the unused
parts when back into the inventory.
Whenever we talked a customer through a procedure or received equipment
for
repair it was always on the understanding that the user would have taken a
full backup of all critical data and that we may have had to reinstall
from
a recovery cd (which erases the contents of the hard drive). Unless you
agree to this we would have refused to attempt a repair. This should have
been spelt out to you.
That said I remember one poor helpdesk soul who forgot to inform the user
that they would lose all their data before talking them through recovering
the pc from a recovery cd. Apparently she lost several months worth of
financial data, invoices and creditor lists. The customer was very upset
and
arrived the next day attempting to gain entry to the building to
remonstrate
with the responsible rep.
Fortunatley she couldn't get into the building (swipe card entry) and in
the
end she chained herself to the railings and called the local tv station
(meridian I think) which was suitably located directly opposite the help
call centre. We could see her on the carpark security cameras.
A last point is don't you have a backup? What would have happend had your
hard drive failed?
If your data has value then its worth backing up. Can I suggest you look
at
one of the external USB solutions (the maxtor one touch solution comes to
mind) for future reference.
Andy
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J. Clarke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
F wrote:
| Quote: | One point to make is that the terms and cons of warrenty all seem to
include the void if you remove the HD
With this in mind, i've got a laptop which is backed up every day at
midnight... at 23:30 it dies so I have a whole days work not backed up
worth £2-3k to me. No life in the machine ... HOW DO I BACKUP THE DATA ?
do I pull the drive and dump it to a PC - void warrenty
ask repair center to pull HD keep it safe ? - no pickup
I know which one I'd do - no warrenty + new laptop is still cheaper than
loss of data.
|
Sounds like you need to work out a more effective backup strategy. How much
data (in bytes) are you talking about?
| Quote: |
x> wrote in message
news:4372444f$0$82642$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
"Barry Hobbf" <b.hobbs@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:639af.331$Cq4.222@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
Hello,
A month ago my laptop died and was sent away under warranty. After a
month
it was still not returned. For the alst 2 weeks ive been on the phone
for
hours trying to work out what exactly was happening - to be told about
30
different stories. So far I can work out the laptop is still not fixed,
and
they have erased the data on the HDD. (apparently it was just a power
supply
fault)
In the mean time I have got a new laptop because after 28 days PC world
are
obliged to give a replacement - and even doing this they tried to fob
me of
with a lower spec.
However, the data on the drive was very important to me and included
tax data for my business and other business related items - as well as
many sentimental items.
Can i claim against them to receive compensation for my losses, and the
cost
of calls and time/productivity I have lost?
AlsoThe company want 80 quid for me to get my hard drive back - which
has
been wiped. Can the data still be recovered if they have wiped it? (not
sure
how they erase the drives, wether its quick format or full overwrite)
many thanks, I'll appriciate any replies.
There are some negative comments in this thread. I hope I can address
some of them
I worked for Mastercare PC solutions on the helpdesk in Nottingham. By
and large the staff were good, some excellent and some poor. If you got a
poor member of staff then you were stuffed otherwise most customers were
well pleased with the result. We diagnosed problems as best we could at
the end of the phone line. We were able to book out any spares we thought
the job needed (if a hardware fault) without restriction. If we thought
it could
be
a mainboard / cpu / ram part then we booked out all three and the unused
parts when back into the inventory.
Whenever we talked a customer through a procedure or received equipment
for
repair it was always on the understanding that the user would have taken
a full backup of all critical data and that we may have had to reinstall
from
a recovery cd (which erases the contents of the hard drive). Unless you
agree to this we would have refused to attempt a repair. This should have
been spelt out to you.
That said I remember one poor helpdesk soul who forgot to inform the user
that they would lose all their data before talking them through
recovering the pc from a recovery cd. Apparently she lost several months
worth of financial data, invoices and creditor lists. The customer was
very upset
and
arrived the next day attempting to gain entry to the building to
remonstrate
with the responsible rep.
Fortunatley she couldn't get into the building (swipe card entry) and in
the
end she chained herself to the railings and called the local tv station
(meridian I think) which was suitably located directly opposite the help
call centre. We could see her on the carpark security cameras.
A last point is don't you have a backup? What would have happend had your
hard drive failed?
If your data has value then its worth backing up. Can I suggest you look
at
one of the external USB solutions (the maxtor one touch solution comes to
mind) for future reference.
Andy
|
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J. Clarke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
Barry Hobbf wrote:
| Quote: | Because they are the ones that deleted it with no apparent reason and
without my consent. I do not create backups daily, its more like every 2
weeks. Can you say you backup you data every time you make changes?
|
Recommended practice for backups is daily with at least three generations of
rotation. If you're not doing that that's your problem. If it's tax
related you should keep paper copies as well.
| Quote: | "[0v0]" <no.address@nd.no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dd44aa09a42f1d598988c@news.individual.net...
In article <639af.331$Cq4.222@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>,
b.hobbs@ntlworld.com says...
However, the data on the drive was very important to me and included tax
data for my business and other business related items - as well as many
sentimental items.
Can i claim against them to receive compensation for my losses, and the
cost
of calls and time/productivity I have lost?
I'm surprised to read you think someone else is responsible for the loss
of data which you didn't back up.
Do others think the same?
|
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J. Clarke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:28 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
Tarzan wrote:
| Quote: |
"William P.N. Smith" <news05@compusmiths.com> wrote in message
news:3r7km15pruk7rebe192le9vns7ds0o3lou@4ax.com...
"Uncle Scrooge" <US@scrooge.com> wrote:
If a disk has been erased, even once, can the data on it
be recovered by commercial means, regardless of costs?
Well, there's "erased" and then there's "erased". Erasure methods can
range from:
Erase all files - Undelete programs can recover
Quick Format - a bit more work, but easy to recover
Normal Format - check with a data recovery company
Low-Level format with MFR diags - ask the NSA
Linux-based overwriter - NSA again, the more passes, the more secure
Can law-enforcement agencies actually read erased
disks?
Yes, and their forensic techiques can supposedly pull stuff off even
multi-pass overwritten drives, though it's really expensive and
time-consuming to do so, so they'd have to have a good reason to
bother.
Note that a 'bad' sector, when it gets remapped in the drive, will
still be there, and probably easily readable by the NSA, even after
dozens of 'overwrite' passes (as it's not getting overwritten). Hence
the requirement for Really Secure Data to be physically destroyed.
I did a couple of passes of a Linux overwriter recently before I sent
a Dell machine back, and I'm not worried.
Are the standard wipe programs out there, say, with DOD
standards, good enough for permanently making the data
unrecoverable, even by the most sophisticated means, or
can the NSA read anything anyway?
|
Nobody knows for sure but the NSA and they aren't talking.
If you need to permanently make the data nonrecoverable, then physically
destroy the magnetic surfaces on the platters.
| Quote: | What Linux overwriter did you use?
|
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Breuer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Data loss -PC world |
|
|
In comp.sys.laptops J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | One point to make is that the terms and cons of warrenty all seem to
include the void if you remove the HD
|
That would be unlikely. HD's are user replaceable parts in all the
laptops I've ever seen, going back to 486 days. Take it out - they have
no right to your data, in law or in more.
Peter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
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