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Don R.
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:
WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Thanks, again, for all the good input concerning scanning old 35 mm
color slides.
I checked out the Epson Perfection 3170; it's only available in the US
and I'm currently in Canada for some time.
Has anyone any expertise in the following scanners? If so, would
appreciate your input concerning how well it does 35 mm color slides.
NIKON SUPER COOLSCAN 4000 ED 35mm film scanner 4000 dpi
Canon CanoScan FS2710 Film Scanner (35 mm)
Canon CanoScan 3000F Scanner
CanoScan 8400F
Thanks.
Don R.
<odatdon@REMOVETHIStelus.net |
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Roger
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 05:17:51 GMT, Don R. <odatdon@REMOVETHIStelus.net>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks, again, for all the good input concerning scanning old 35 mm
color slides.
|
I don't know if I posted this link or not, but it might be of help.
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/scanning.htm
| Quote: |
I checked out the Epson Perfection 3170; it's only available in the US
and I'm currently in Canada for some time.
Has anyone any expertise in the following scanners? If so, would
appreciate your input concerning how well it does 35 mm color slides.
NIKON SUPER COOLSCAN 4000 ED 35mm film scanner 4000 dpi
|
I have the LS 5000 ED which I think is a newer version which replaces
the 4000. They are different though.
I like the 5000. It's fast and accurate. For what it does the prices
is not bad, particularly if you shop around. I purchased mine off the
net using price comparisons and service comparisons of the dealers.
I could have gotten it a bit cheaper, but I chose to go with a dealer
that had a better rating.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
| Quote: |
Canon CanoScan FS2710 Film Scanner (35 mm)
Canon CanoScan 3000F Scanner
CanoScan 8400F
Thanks.
Don R.
odatdon@REMOVETHIStelus.net
Roger |
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mp
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:50 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Canon's slide scanning quality suffers greatly from the complicated
optical path and very poor quality CCD of their tiny film scanners.
The hardware quality is comparable to the PIE scanning products.
They mask their problems by pumping up the contrast and sharpening.
You are probably already convinced that a Canon is in your future, so
get the best price on the one you can afford and enjoy.
Michael |
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Roger S.
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:22 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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"Canon's slide scanning quality suffers greatly from the complicated
optical path and very poor quality CCD of their tiny film scanners"
Does this statement include the Canon FS4000US? Also, if one scans
with Vuescan, there is no sharpening applied.
Can you elaborate on your statement as I use this scanner (with great
results for negatives and mixed results for slides). |
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mp
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:42 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Yes, it applies to the fs4000US.
How do you think they got it *that* small? They have a bunch of
mirrors and an indirect lightpath back to the CCD that seriously
compromise capture quality.
A direct light path would make a scanner that's too big for nearly all
consumers, so they make you something you will buy. That you don't
observe the poor quality has to do more with software engineering
prowess than anything else.
What matters is you get great results. |
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Roger S.
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:31 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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"A direct light path would make a scanner that's too big for nearly all
consumers, so they make you something you will buy. "
So how is this different from any other scanner? |
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mp
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:05 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Because there really *are* scanners on the market that deliver far
better results. Imacon (hassel-something?) and Polaroids old 4"x5"
film scanner are two examples.
Hell, even polaroid's 35mm film scanner is better than the popular
models. (much higher MTF) For reason's unknown to me, no one buys
them.
My point being, in Canon/Nikon/Minolta's case Marketing claims have
nothing to do with the actual performance of the devices they sell. It
saddens me every time I see it. The popular $1000-2000 film scanners
do not resolve 4000ppi and have terrible MTF.
I understand that this may be bad news to photography enthusiasts, but
it's the current state of affairs until something better comes along. |
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Steven
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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On 17 Oct 2005 15:42:37 -0700, "mp" <mpapet@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, it applies to the fs4000US.
How do you think they got it *that* small? They have a bunch of
mirrors and an indirect lightpath back to the CCD that seriously
compromise capture quality.
|
Well, only one mirror. However, it may be one too many. I have
wondered about modifying my FS4000 but it is a serious and risky
modification.
| Quote: | A direct light path would make a scanner that's too big for nearly all
consumers, so they make you something you will buy. That you don't
observe the poor quality has to do more with software engineering
prowess than anything else.
|
Such a scanner would be an ugly monstrosity and a nightmare for the
marketing department. Still, it wouldn't worry me if it produced better
scans. Do you think the mirror is a significant problem ? I think the
accuracy and consistency of the CCD-ADC step (converting light into
digital readings) is the major problem which is why I stopped worrying
about the mirror.
-- Steven |
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Alex
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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"mp" <mpapet@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Because there really *are* scanners on the market that deliver far
better results. Imacon (hassel-something?) and Polaroids old 4"x5"
film scanner are two examples.
Hell, even polaroid's 35mm film scanner is better than the popular
models. (much higher MTF) For reason's unknown to me, no one buys
them.
My point being, in Canon/Nikon/Minolta's case Marketing claims have
nothing to do with the actual performance of the devices they sell. It
saddens me every time I see it. The popular $1000-2000 film scanners
do not resolve 4000ppi and have terrible MTF.
I understand that this may be bad news to photography enthusiasts, but
it's the current state of affairs until something better comes along.
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This is disconcerting news! To me at least. Are there any examples that
confirm the difference in quality?
Greetings, Alex |
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Wilfred
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Alex wrote:
| Quote: | "mp" <mpapet@gmail.com> wrote:
Because there really *are* scanners on the market that deliver far
better results. Imacon (hassel-something?) and Polaroids old 4"x5"
film scanner are two examples.
Hell, even polaroid's 35mm film scanner is better than the popular
models. (much higher MTF) For reason's unknown to me, no one buys
them.
My point being, in Canon/Nikon/Minolta's case Marketing claims have
nothing to do with the actual performance of the devices they sell. It
saddens me every time I see it. The popular $1000-2000 film scanners
do not resolve 4000ppi and have terrible MTF.
I understand that this may be bad news to photography enthusiasts, but
it's the current state of affairs until something better comes along.
This is disconcerting news!
|
Yeah, finally I'm beginning to understand why these discussion groups
are called "news groups" ;-)
--
Wilfred van der Vegte.
e-mail: first five letters of my first name at gmx dot net |
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Bart van der Wolf
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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"mp" <mpapet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129601119.339529.109210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
SNIP
| Quote: | The popular $1000-2000 film scanners do not resolve 4000ppi
and have terrible MTF.
|
Care to elaborate? Which scanners, and what is their resolution. What
is in your opinion a terrible MTF, compared to what? Any links to
support your claim?
Bart |
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Greg Campbell
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:19 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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mp wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, it applies to the fs4000US.
How do you think they got it *that* small? They have a bunch of
mirrors and an indirect lightpath back to the CCD that seriously
compromise capture quality.
|
Looking at mine, I see a single fold mirror that bounces the image
coming through the film into a lens that (presumably) focuses onto the
linear CCD. I've never had it apart, so there may be more mirrors, but
I don't see the need for them, and somewhat doubt they exist.
| Quote: | A direct light path would make a scanner that's too big for nearly all
consumers, so they make you something you will buy. That you don't
observe the poor quality has to do more with software engineering
prowess than anything else.
|
While I agree that just about every scanner/camera/printer/etc. sold
today is build to a price point, I'd like some proof of the FS4000's
optical shortcomings. Clearly, the low end ccd noise could be better,
but I have doubts regarding the 'cheapness' of the optical system.
At any rate, two passes with Neatimage (one for chroma, one for
luminance; running different filter parameters for each task) fixes most
of the shortcomings.
Living in AZ, I get much more CCD noise in the hot summer months. I'm
on the verge of installing a blower that will pump filtered, peltier
cooled air into the scanner... Anyone else done something similar??
-Greg |
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Pavel Dvorak
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:39 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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Don R. (odatdon@REMOVETHIStelus.net) writes:
| Quote: | Thanks, again, for all the good input concerning scanning old 35 mm
color slides.
I checked out the Epson Perfection 3170; it's only available in the US
and I'm currently in Canada for some time.
Has anyone any expertise in the following scanners? If so, would
appreciate your input concerning how well it does 35 mm color slides.
NIKON SUPER COOLSCAN 4000 ED 35mm film scanner 4000 dpi
Canon CanoScan FS2710 Film Scanner (35 mm)
I am no expert, but here is a bit from my experience with FS2710: |
I've had this one for several years. It is OK to scan for printing up to,
I'd say 8"x10", providing your slides are not very dark. It has problems
with high density areas (its specified density range is only 3.2) and
tends to bleed from bright to dark areas, which I find very annoying.
It has a rather good registration, so there is no problem with multiple
scans, at least when using VueScan (which I like much better than the
original Canon software). It is reasonably fast (after all, it is only
2720 ppi - wonder why they call it 2710).
It has no ICE (no IR channel), so you have to make sure your slides are as
clean as possible. Some dust removal can be done in VueScan and there is
a fairly good (in my opinion) dust removing freeware from that can be
downoaded from Polaroid.
I doubt that you still could buy it new; second hand it should be almost
for free, since it is quite obsolete by now and there is, AFAIK, no more
support for it from Canon. Also, it may be difficult to find a driver for
more recent OS. I am running it on W98SE. If you do try to acquire it,
make sure that it comes with its dedicated scuzzy board.
Pavel
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Roger S.
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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The scanner bakeoff tests show the FS4000US doing reasonably well
against all of the competition. The original test did measure MTF as
well. I have found the scanner has a lot of trouble with dark or
contrasty slides.
Greg, I thought you were sticking to your DRebel? I haven't noticed
more noise in the summer and it gets up to 80F in my room, but it might
be a subtle increase. |
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mp
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:39 am Post subject:
Re: WHICH FILM/SLIDE SCANNER TO BUY???? |
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| Quote: | Such a scanner would be an ugly monstrosity and a nightmare for the
marketing department.
Ask Imacon about that. The big pre-press flatbed scanner manufacturers |
too. Their customers feel differently about it.
| Quote: | Do you think the mirror is a significant problem ?
Yup. They lose 30%+/- of their light. Better mirrors are way too |
expensive to use at $1000 price point. The other significant problem
is the CCD. It calculates out to about 4000ppi, but the noise and
accuracy is very low. Most of the budget on that device goes to
advertising, not the hardware.
The information provided here and links away from the pages are
excellent. Watch that clipping!
http://www.jamesphotography.ca/bakeoff2004/scanner_test_results_numbers.html
I really regret contributing. I had no idea the products in question
were so favored despite their technical deficiencies.
Good luck and sorry. |
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